Episode 71 - How Investors and Architects Work Together to Build Better Housing with Architect Peter Gray
In this episode, Stephen Husted sits down with architect Peter Gray to break down what really happens behind the scenes of development projects, ADUs, DADUs, and middle housing in Seattle. Peter shares what investors often get wrong during the feasibility and permitting process, why building the right team matters more than maximizing square footage, and how communication between architects, contractors, engineers, and investors can make or break a project. Stephen also walks through one of their recent Seattle projects, including how they transformed a tight urban lot into a highly functional middle housing product with a two-car garage and covered outdoor living space. The conversation dives into zoning changes, Seattle’s evolving middle housing opportunities, common mistakes developers make, and how AI tools like ChatGPT are helping investors analyze deals and feasibility faster than ever before. Whether you're a beginner investor or already scaling development projects, this episode offers valuable insight into the systems, planning, and relationships needed to succeed in real estate development.
Stephen and Peter – talked about:
00:00 – Introduction and meeting architect Peter Gray
02:30 – Seattle ADUs, DADUs, and middle housing opportunities
05:40 – Why feasibility studies matter before buying property
09:10 – Using ChatGPT and AI for development feasibility
11:20 – Breaking down the Seattle middle housing project
16:00 – The architect’s role in maximizing land use
22:00 – Building the right development team and systems
29:40 – Biggest mistakes investors make during development
35:20 – Architect vs interior designer explained
54:20 – Advice for beginner investors getting into development
TRANSCRIPT
∎ Teaser / Highlighted Clip
00:01 Stephen Husted: When does the investor come to you as the architect? What part of the process?
00:06 Peter Gray: I would love if they always started earlier, to be honest.
00:09 Stephen Husted: Before they write the offer?
00:12 Peter Gray: Before they write the offer. I would much rather have a client call me up and say, hey, can I take five minutes of your time? I'm looking at this property and I can pull up the local GIS data and zoning data and say, hey, okay, this is my initial reaction. Or also... The inversely, hey, this is what I found. Don't do it. Because the projects that are the most difficult in that situation are the ones that come after a close, maybe after they've gone through site feasibility with maybe even another group.
00:44 Stephen Husted: What I love about development is I just love to go from something that's not even there, a vision, getting the vision put into play. and make it to reality and see it done. It's like, wow, there's this cool new home that somebody can either live in or rent and I'm providing housing and it's going to be there for a very long time.
∎ Podcast Intro:
01:12 Stephen Husted: I'm Stephen Husted and you're listening to The Breakthrough Podcast, a space designed for clarity, curiosity, and the stories that move us. Here, we step away from the noise and into the moments that define us. the early influences, the hidden struggles, and the breakthroughs that reshape our lives. From personal reinvention to building a life through real estate and entrepreneurship, these conversations remind us that success isn't a straight line. It's a series of honest decisions, brave actions, and small shifts that change everything. This is where those stories live. Let's begin.
∎ Guest Introduction:
01:50 Stephen Husted: Today, we're diving into a side of real estate development that a lot of investors overlook. The architect. If you're building ADUs, middle housing, or any kind of ground-up development, the right architect can make your project smooth and profitable, while the wrong one can create major delays and headaches. Today I'm joined by Peter Gray, an architect based in the Pacific Northwest who specializes in residential development, AD use, and middle housing projects. Peter actually worked with me on a project in Seattle, and it ended up being one of the smoothest permitting and design processes we've had. In this episode, we talk about how investors should work with architects, when to bring them into a deal, common mistakes developers make during feasibility, and how new zoning laws... are opening opportunities in markets like Seattle. So if you're thinking about getting into development or building ADUs, this conversation is packed with practical insight. Let's jump into my conversation with Peter Gray.
∎ Podcast Proper:
02:54 Stephen Husted: Peter, how are you? Hey,
02:56 Peter Gray: doing well, thanks.
02:57 Stephen Husted: Thanks for joining the podcast today. I appreciate it. You've been on the list.
03:01 Peter Gray: Great. Glad to be considered and glad to be here.
03:04 Stephen Husted: Yeah. And as we were talking earlier, before getting on that I actually came with a bunch of questions regarding how to deal with an architect and what are the pitfalls and all these things. And, you know, the reason why this time I actually have questions is it is also a new frontier for me as well for what we're doing out in Seattle that I don't have all the answers. So whenever I brought in other guests on, we usually have a very good common, like we either buy investment properties or we have midterm rentals. So we have this language we can talk. Yours, on the other hand,
03:41 Stephen Husted: is much different. I'm excited to kind of deep dive this because I want to learn from you. There was a lot of behind the scenes with us when we did this last project. And one thing I can say is hiring you as our architect on our project was the smoothest we've had so far to date. And I don't think I've even told you this yet, right?
04:03 Peter Gray: No, you haven't. No, I appreciate that. And that's obviously the goal, right? Is that you can work well with somebody. I'm glad that we were able to do that for you.
04:12 Stephen Husted: Well, so leading into that, because I've now learned what can happen when you hire a bad architect, what makes working with a good architect? What does that process look like for a homeowner or investor?
04:25 Peter Gray: Yeah. And I think this probably works on all scales of projects. The first one is just having that sit down like we're doing right now, talking about what your goals are. talking about how you're going to communicate, setting that up at the beginning. And it's really just about what seems to fit. Not everybody fits with everybody else. And I think that is the biggest thing at the beginning is that communication style,
04:55 Peter Gray: the... Starting to kind of build out that relationship. How do we want to work together? Not working beyond just what is the architect's typical, say, stylistic approach, but how does an architect think about the specific project that the client proposing? Is it something that they have experience in? Is it something that they are passionate about? Is something that they offer maybe a unique perspective in? And that just depends based on the typology of the work.
05:23 Stephen Husted: Let's give the audience a little context on what we're talking about, what we've been doing out in. Let's talk about Seattle. One thing that I wanted to get across here, because people
05:36 Stephen Husted: want to build ADUs throughoutCalifornia. Seattle's big, Oregon. But there's different laws to everything that's getting built in different states, correct?
05:47 Peter Gray: Correct. They're all kind of in parallel with one another in terms of the kind of thematicoverview.
05:52 Peter Gray: but every jurisdiction has different requirements and different allowances. Even within my expertise area, which is the Pacific Northwest, you look at Seattle has one set of rules and regulations and Bellevue has very different rules and regulations for the exact same typology of housing. And I think that gets back to your first question about hiring or how to create a good dialogue with an architect or that whole team is finding people and building those relationships in areas where you see that expertise. You see people doing good work because hiring somebody that knows the zoning code, that knows the nuance of how you can fit something in that kind of puzzle piece together makes a massive difference on the outcome of the project.
06:41 Stephen Husted: And that's an interesting part of the process when you're Say you're an investor and you're going out to Seattle's market and you're going to buy a property. It's a single family home and it's on an alley. Maybe it's less than 4,000 square foot lot. And you're going, what's the highest and best use? What can I do on this lot? And some of the times what you think in your head, what you can do, there's sometimes more than you can do. And you just don't know it until you get in front of the architect to find out what is possible.
07:15 Peter Gray: Absolutely. I think that's why we always start any of our projects like exactly what you and I worked on together with that feasibility phase. What can we build? Because I think the other part of that equation is not necessarily 100% what can we build, but it's what should we build. Just because we can build this, maximize the site FAR, maximize the height limit, or do something like that. doesn't mean it actually meets the market doesn't mean it actually is sellable or rentable and i think that's that kind of right sizing of the investment as a critical component early on and that's a big thing of what we do with all of our projects personally and i see that across a lot of industries is trying to find that right size how do we work as a team to collaborate, to really identify, is it a DADU? Or now with the new Washington State middle housing opportunities, is it slightly larger than a DADU? Are there opportunities to do two DADUs instead of one, but now we can put them together? And so it kind of ties into that understanding the nuance of the unique zoning code for that area and kind of right-sizing the investment piece for that group to make sure that it actually has a successful outcome.
08:30 Stephen Husted: When does the... investor come to you as the architect? What part of the process?
08:37 Peter Gray: I would love if they always started earlier, to be honest.
08:40 Stephen Husted: Before they write the offer.
08:43 Peter Gray: Before they write the offer. I would much rather have a client call me up and say, hey, can I take five minutes of your time? I'm looking at this property and I can pull up the local GIS data and zoning data and say, hey, okay, this is my initial reaction. Or also the inversely, hey, this is what I found. Don't do it.
09:06 Peter Gray: Because the projects that are the most difficult in that situation are the ones that come after a close, maybe after they've gone through site feasibility with maybe even another group. That's happened before where I've had a client come in and say, hey, I got a piece of property. I didn't really realize the issues that we had. The one I'm thinking about in particular, they didn't realize that 50% of their property had a wetland overlay on it.
09:32 Peter Gray: When you walk the property, didn't look like it was a wetland, didn't appear to be a wetland, but it was a part of a larger map that if you had pulled it up on the GIS data, it was very clearly marked and it severely impacted the development potential of that property. So that's a big one is the earlier the better to help avoid some of those big swings in potential value.
09:56 Stephen Husted: There's definitely a lot of upfront. feasibility that you need to do on each project that you're analyzing that you want to make sure you can try to cover 95% of the base of what you need to figure out, right? Yeah.
10:13 Peter Gray: Yeah. Absolutely. I think moreand more developers, our clients that I speak to that are in that kind of development, looking to add value on properties, more and more are becoming savvier, which I love. They're coming with a survey already completed. They're coming with a more defined goal, especially in the Washington state area has started to kind of shake itself out a little bit of what we can and can't do. There's more direction in some ways there, which has been really nice. I think the nice part as well is I think. the cray, the buying craze of the 21 and 22 era, which I know you're very familiar with as well, has calmed down. And that was where I saw a lot of missteps. I saw a lot of investors trying to kind of jump on the real estate train, as it were, without a lot of kind of forefront
11:00 Peter Gray: feasibility, especially when properties were, hey, you're going non-refundable from the beginning and it's a... seven day all cash close and people were basically trying to buy anything and everything because it was just difficult to get physical assets to start with from a development standpoint and that's where i saw a lot of those kind of buy first ask questions later concepts and i think as the market has shifted
11:24 Stephen Husted:
11:26 Peter Gray: of requirements to buy as soon as you get the email that this off-market opportunity exists has calmed down it's given i think it's given developers a little more sanity and actually being able to understand what their opportunities are before coming and speaking with an architect.
11:44 Stephen Husted: Yeah, that was a crazy time. You're absolutely right. It was more of just jump in, we'll figure it out. But you definitely cannot do that with development when you're building DADUs or ADUs or just adding a few units there. You really need to have a clear picture on what you're doing. with that particular development. Interesting enough, Did I tell you that I use ChatGPT to underwrite and do all the feasibility to just get me in the door so that I could write an offer on that property that we worked
12:15 Peter Gray: with? Yeah. I remember when we first met, we did talk about ChatGPT and how it relates. And I think that's a perfect example, actually, where technology is a big advantage. It's a big equalizer for developers, for investors, even for myself personally. Hey, I've had a question about the, say, civil stormwater manual. I'm not an expert in that. I'm not a civil. engineer but it at least can direct me
12:37 Stephen Husted: to the
12:38 Peter Gray: area of the manual that i may want to actually read where before i had no idea where to start and i think the ai tools like that are fantastic for understanding feasibility now i have caught it where it doesn't actually know the most current code and so i found that you definitely have to be careful with what it gives you because it's still a beta product at the end of the day at best you do you absolutely fact check it's a great starting point it's a great directional tool and then fact checking on the back end is obviously critical to making sure that you're not misstepping
13:14 Stephen Husted: well
13:15 Stephen Husted: with the one that we worked on It started off with a Dadu product,
13:21 Stephen Husted: right?
13:22 Stephen Husted: And that was like a thousand square foot footprint. And then I went back to it and said,
13:29 Stephen Husted: hey,
13:30 Stephen Husted: there's new laws that are changing in Seattle. Please use those and let's try to build something with the middle housing. What is highest and best use? And do you remember in the beginning we were going to do a dadu? And then I said, look, maybe we can flip this into the middle housing. And all the little design up front in the beginning was coming through Chad TVT. Like I was talking about, I'm like, hey, I'm concerned about parking.
13:58 Stephen Husted: That was a big one. And it said, well, do a two-car garage on the first floor. You have the room for it. And then we kind of went back to it. And then you started getting drawn up. And then we were off to the races. And what a great product that we put on that lot, on that 3,500 square foot lot.
14:15 Peter Gray: Yeah, it's pretty impressive.
14:16 Peter Gray: I think that project in particular is going to be a really good case study for early on adoption of this kind of missing middle housing component in these urban areas. And like you said, using the retortism tools available to us early on really helps you. right size that investment. It was a project that originally was going to be a thousand square foot interior space with a 230 square foot garage. And we were able to get it to a two car garage, full depth, 20 by 20 for two car parking or one car parking and tons of storage kind of concept with then, I think it ended up being around 1400 square feet. functional living space where you really get a three-bed, two-and-a-half bath home with a two-car garage on a tight urban lot.
15:04 Stephen Husted: Which is incredible.
15:06 Stephen Husted: Which is just absolutely incredible. On top of that, well, you want to walk through that project and
15:12 Stephen Husted: what we did?
15:13 Stephen Husted: We can kind of talk about it. Yeah, so bought the main house. It was a small little 2-1. Turned the main house into a 3-2 upper. And then the basement, we turned the basement into a three bedroom, two bath. We worked with you first
15:30 Stephen Husted: and foremost. So we're building, now we're condoizing the lot.
15:33 Stephen Husted: And we came
15:35 Stephen Husted: up with a three bedroom, two and a half bath, 1,397 square foot interior with
15:43 Stephen Husted: how
15:44 Stephen Husted: much for the garage?
15:45 Stephen Husted: Like 400, 450?
15:46 Peter Gray: Yeah, I think it's just over 400 square feet for the garage, which is a full two bays.
15:51 Stephen Husted: Yeah. And then, which is a... which is such a big value play for that location, for
15:57 Stephen Husted: sure.
15:58 Stephen Husted: And then we did a covered deck. And that covered deck was, how much square foot did we do? Like a little
16:03 Peter Gray: over 200? I think it's just over 200. Yeah, it was like just about 195 from my quick math, 195 square feet. And I think that actually coming up with that concept of that covered deck on the second floor is going to be really critical to that unique. design that we've put together and what that allows for is that extra 200 square feet while it's not interior square footage it's square footage that is super functional for whomever lives in that space because instead of doing a roof deck which we typically see in townhouses across all jurisdictions just because you end up with zero lot to work with so the only outdoor space you can provide is the roof and the major downside to all those i see especially if it's a project that you're going to own long term from a rent long-term rental strategy standpoint is maintenance is a big piece of that is those roof decks don't get maintained and so guaranteed you're going to have roof issues in the long term right and so just it is a practical component about that and then the other issue i see with those roof decks is they're always accessed through bedrooms or through there's an interstitial floor of kind of quote unquote private space in a home to go from a public more entertaining space or living dining kitchen zone through a bedroom floor to then get to another entertaining space i just don't love it and by adding that deck in the context of directly adjacent to that living dining kitchen with a big door that opens up it's fully covered we're going to do some heaters in the ceiling immediately just makes that you now you have a much bigger living space yeah
17:40 Stephen Husted: because when you open up those big bifold that we're currently looking into right now. You just got all that, you got that, all that extra space now. And what I really liked about that, and that was one of the biggest things we were talking about that I wanted some type of outdoor space because there is none. Let's be clear. There isn't. So this kind of helped solve that issue. You got the big bifolds. So in the summer, you can open that up. You got that deck. It's covered. So it's shaded. And it's just more usable square footage because it just ties right into that living room, which is going to be amazing for entertaining too. And if you want outdoors, you just walk across the street to go to Green Lake.
18:21 Peter Gray: Yeah, absolutely.Absolutely. I think it's a perfect example where, you know, because your living dining kitchen is on that second floor and then also your entertaining outdoor spaces on that second floor. Because we had a really small, tight lot to work with, it's fine that your ground floor space is the mechanical area. It's the parking area. It's where those trash cans inevitably are going to sit. And it raises you up above that. And so you're almost in the second floor. You're almost already in this kind of treehouse experience by comparison to being on the ground floor, which would be traditionally in most townhouses or daddies, your living, dining, kitchen zone.
18:55 Stephen Husted: What is the biggest role? the architect plays with dealing with the investor on a project?
19:02 Peter Gray: That is a loaded question because it could be a lot of things. And I think it depends on that relationship between investor and architect and how you work together. I think the single biggest role that an architect can offer is really that value add through land That it's something that, especially with, again, these new policies,
19:23 Stephen Husted: that
19:24 Peter Gray: Coming in, as you did when we first met, hey, I've got this piece of property. What can we do on it? What are these unique opportunities? And I think at the end of the day, that communication, that relationship showed with
19:35 Stephen Husted: a project
19:36 Peter Gray: style that I'm, one, very proud of, but two, very excited to see that it's going to be a phenomenal value add for that
19:44 Stephen Husted: space. So I
19:46 Peter Gray: think it's just that the X Factor really is creative solutions. with good land use and policy in that way. In the same vein, a developer that's willing to go along with that a little bit.
19:59 Stephen Husted: Yeah, you have to definitely learn to be a good team player and really trust your team on the ground and who you're working with on these projects. I learned the hard way on my first go-around out in Seattle about dealing with my architect and it didn't go as planned. And things were delayed, had a lot of issues. And it gave me a lot of different reservations with when I'm hiring other people. And you know what was interesting? I wasn't even going to hire you. And it wasn't because you're not good at what you do. my assistant so we already had hired another architect on another project and i met with them i liked them i liked the way they communicated they were emailing they were doing everything that was just like okay this is a hundred times better than what i just went through and we were getting ready to start the planning for 75th and i told my assistant reach back out to the other architect get going and she's like
21:00 Stephen Husted: what about peter
21:02 Stephen Husted: And I said, what about him? She's like, I
21:05 Stephen Husted: think you need two.
21:07 Stephen Husted: I think you should hire Peter. I think you should give Peter a try. And I stepped back for a minute. And you know what? My assistant, she's getting, she's so good at like seeing the bigger picture sometimes that when I'm just focused on trying to move, move the shit forward. But my biggest thing is I always want to just put people in front of me, trust my team. and move on to the other things that are going on and she really said that i think you need two architects out there just like you need two contractors out there and so we hired you and it was great at the end you got the permits everything was smooth i don't even remember i didn't even hear about any corrections if there was some corrections i don't even remember you even calling me and talking to me everything was so smooth and we got him in lightning
21:54 Stephen Husted: but here's the question for you What issues did you run into on our project? Was there anything big?
22:01 Peter Gray: No. Which is why you didn't hear about it.
22:05 Stephen Husted: Yeah.
22:06 Stephen Husted: As I say, I didn't hear about anything. It was pretty smooth.
22:10 Peter Gray: It was very smooth. And that's a big something about prior planning, which is something that we take very seriously in our office, is if there is a big... issue to discuss during permit directions we haven't done our job right and you hire me and our design team as at the end of the day we're the kind of the financial tool to success because if you can't get through entitlements if you can't get through permitting in a timely fashion without a bunch of corrections and with a project that that fits your real goals and needs, we've unfortunately not done our job. And I think that's kind of why that project worked well is we planned really well. We did a lot of work up front to make sure that we were back checking ourselves. And again, working with you as well, making sure we were checking in. What are you looking for? How can we do this? Hey, here are some options. And just staying in kind of that constant communication early on allowed for that really successful and really streamlined permitting process. We did have corrections. I will admit that because every project I've ever worked on has something for the most part.
23:17 Stephen Husted: What were they? Do you remember?
23:18 Peter Gray: Yeah, there were a few things that were more clarifications on the energy code, which. was really just actually just called up the reviewer directly and said, hey, I'm not actually sure how to answer your review questions because we provided the information. We literally just didn't have it where he was looking. And so just making sure we were on the same page with that. And that's actually, I think, a big thing that most people don't realize is when you're going through that permit documentation phase and submitting things to the city,
23:47 Stephen Husted: the reviewers.
23:50 Peter Gray: are kind of put in an impossible position because our office has standards on how we build our document set and how we produce drawings and where we put information. But there's no standardization across the industry. And so that energy reviewer
24:05 Stephen Husted: was...
24:06 Peter Gray: looking probably where he was looking because the last project put it somewhere and it's not where we put it and there was just a conflict there and that happens so often and it's something that we always try and kind of take that feedback on and learn from so for the next project all right great where we we had our own energy page sheet it's not like it wasn't there he just looks on the cover sheet that guy. And I was like, okay, all right, let's make, how do we make this even simpler? And I think that's been a big thing that was, I think a great success on your project is that kind of institutional knowledge
24:38 Stephen Husted: of
24:39 Peter Gray: knowing the jurisdiction. We do things differently in Seattle than we do in Kirkland than we do in Bellevue, because we know that different things work for different jurisdictions. And I think that goes back to kind of hiring the good team, not only for the architectural side that kind of knows the position, but it's hiring a good civil engineer. It's hiring a good structural engineer or whomever else you need on your team that really understands, yes, you can design it, but here's how we're going to permit it and document it. So it's a very streamlined process.
25:11 Stephen Husted: And I would add to this that when you're putting together that team, that you reach out to every single one of them and have a one-on-one Zoom meeting and introduce yourself and talk to them. And there's no silly questions either. I think every question should be
25:25 Stephen Husted: asked,
25:26 Stephen Husted: especially in the very beginning when you're looking to do these developments. That's the way that you'll learn and how you'll grow is you have to ask a ton of questions. There's so many moving parts in a development.
25:40 Stephen Husted: Oh my gosh. There's so many.
25:43 Stephen Husted: And I'm okay with saying it that way. I feel like right now, when we pivoted into development out in Seattle, it's a whole new thing. I mean, I am just a sponge absorbing knowledge right now. I'm definitely not an expert. I'm definitely not an expert.
26:02 Peter Gray: Yeah. I mean, from your perspective, as you're kind of gaining this knowledge base, what have been those things that your big takeaways that you know a couple years ago you now take for granted that you now didn't have originally well
26:16 Stephen Husted: before
26:17 Stephen Husted: i mean when we were doing just value add on like rehab projects on burrs and smaller little projects we rinse and repeat and we kind of got that system down so we knew exactly how to do that now you have all these different pieces of the puzzle they'll come at you in different ways too. Like, oh, you have to deal with your surveyor. Oh, wait, you got an oil tank. You have to deal with that part. You need an arborist. You got to deal with this part. You got to make sure that the trees, do you have trees? Like, are those trees going to infringe on your project? And you need to know all these different things up front. You've got environmental, all these little things kind of line up. But the key is, who are all the people that are going to play that part? Get them all have those conversations up front and understand their role and where their role is needed during that process. And then once you kind of have that dialed in,
27:09 Stephen Husted: systemize it,
27:10 Stephen Husted: systemize everything, every step, every step of the way, every project we've done so far, we systemize the whole thing because we want to make sure that then on the next one, it's a rinse and repeat. Of course, there's going to be. different things that come up, but we also understand what we're going through. And in the first few of them, you're kind of like just asking a lot of questions and you're a little bit lost. But if you have the right people around you that you can lean on, it will make it feel a little bit more smoother. But to your point, you got to have the right team.
27:47 Peter Gray: I think that's huge. Yeah, that relationship component, regardless of the scale that you're working on. I've worked on things from small kitchen rehabs to 400 unit massive apartment buildings. And regardless of the scale of project. It comes down to that very human relationship. And like you said, trusting the team, making sure they have everybody has each other's best interest at heart. And the one thing that I obviously did on your project as well as on all of our projects that we do is we set that team schedule really early. I love to try and bring on. the kind of the necessary team members as early as possible, even if they don't have a role to play yet, just because then we can build out that schedule holistically. So we know, hey, permit is kind of off here in the future. So we're just starting on feasibility, but we already have proposals in from structural, from civil, if we can, so we can bake in their schedules into their workloads so that they already know this project is coming. And that's another reason why the 75th project works so. seamlessly is Yardburst was able to get out there quickly.
28:53 Peter Gray: A structural engineer was timely as soon as we released backgrounds. Building that from the beginning allowed us to move much quicker than, oh, we're done with architecture? Great. Now we have to go find a structural engineer. Oh, great. We need a civil engineer. Now what? And those types of things definitely lead so much time on projects.
29:11 Stephen Husted: Yeah, we had the survey done during escrow on the main house. Yep. And that was all learned on the first project out there. So that saved time because I started noticing where I could save time on that first project. Like, oh, here's a spot. I think it's really important to have some type of a calendar of scheduling out where things are going to happen, whether they do exactly to what your schedule looks like. It's good to have a visual of all that. Once again, it's all about systems and processes.
29:40 Stephen Husted: Yeah. It's interesting that you say it's
29:42 Peter Gray: systems and processes, because as an architect, I think back to my my educational component of my career before I got into the actual boots on the ground doing work. And every project in school is this kind of creative capital A ethereal concept. There is no idea around optimization and schedules and this and that. And that's an interesting piece, I think, for architecture. students coming into the industry is you have to flip it on its head a little bit from this scholastic component of structural error exists kind of concepts in some cases that there are bounty boxes. And when you do put those systems in place,
30:27 Stephen Husted: they
30:28 Peter Gray: actually still allow for really creative opportunities. But they allow you to, like you said, systemize the parts of the process that can be repetitive to get to those fun, unique opportunity ideas.
30:43 Stephen Husted: Yeah. And also because you have a team and. especially after you do your first project, you want to make the next one a little bit more seamless. You know where you are in that process. You can make sure that everything's moving in the right direction. You don't want to get to the point where something needs to get done and then you have to get on the schedule. Yeah.
31:05 Stephen Husted: And then you got to wait for this because then you got two weeks here, three weeks there and you add up and next, you know, you got all this time.
31:11 Stephen Husted: Yeah. With you, it was
31:13 Stephen Husted: really smooth. I think one thing that really, I liked about your presentation was that the 3D rendering was really cool.
31:20 Stephen Husted: Yeah. That,
31:21 Stephen Husted: that gave me a good, that gave me a really good visual. And my other business partner slash designer, she loved that. She really liked that part. That was exactly what she wanted to see.
31:34 Peter Gray: Good. I mean, that's something we've learned through this process. Yeah. When I, my background comes from more of a commercial side where. Images are great. They're these pretty pictures that we show every once in a while, but predominantly 99% of the time, it's more technical heads down in code drawing plans because you're surrounded in an environment with people that all understand and can read those technical pieces. When I started this office six years ago now, which is crazy to say, that's something that I learned very quickly is jumping more into the residential side from tattoos to single family homes to small multifamily projects is that all of my clients immediately shifted from being on the more technical side to the more visual side. And that's how we've updated our whole practice now is from day one, we're in 3D showing clients ideas. I don't expect you to learn how to read technical plans. That's not your job. That's my job. My job is to show you what we're doing and what its impact is on that site.
32:36 Stephen Husted: What have you found? recently that investors get wrong? What are they doing wrong when they go into this process?
32:44 Peter Gray: I think early on, there's a lot of push for kind of site maximization in development versus site optimization. And I think
32:53 Stephen Husted: those two
32:55 Peter Gray: pieces are really critical now that, especially in Washington state, that we have this much higher allowance for development in predominantly single-family zoning.
33:05 Peter Gray: And that maximization piece is just because you can build it, should you? And I think that's where I see some clients kind of get ahead of themselves, especially when using artificial intelligence to do feasibility studies, where I had a client recently come in and say, hey, I have this piece of property in Bellevue. I think ChatGPT is telling me I can put 11 cottages on it. And they were really excited. And they were like, yes, we're going to do this. And they're like aligning investors up and they're talking to real estate agents and the building performance of budgets. And I finally came in and said, raising my hand, kind of unfortunately going, just because the zoning code allows for it, where are these 11 cottages going? And so I think that was something that they were really, they got kind of over their skis on was this 11 number. They're really locked in. And that was something that I see. Across a lot of development is you get one idea that you're locked in, you've written a pro forma on, you're, you may even go on and talk about, you've gotten soft quotes for financing on, and then you actually go through a more detailed feasibility or design process and it changes. And that's where I see a lot of kind of frustration from developers. That project ended up, we were only able to do eight cottages. That's a big difference. That's if you're selling in a one.
34:25 Stephen Husted: Could they have done 11 or did you guys scale back for another reason to like grab parking or what was it? Could they have technically done 11?
34:34 Peter Gray: Zoning? Yes. like you'd be perfect you hit that on the nose though of site access of parking of other amenity area requirements all those other things really redo impact projects and that's a detailed zoning analysis is critical because one part of the code may allow it and a different part of the code may not allow it so there's that i also see so that's on the feasibility early design phase of where i see owners hit stumbling blocks i
35:01 Stephen Husted: also see
35:03 Peter Gray: owners hit stumbling blocks during construction. So after we've gone through the process, we've designed a great project, we're excited to build it. And they then go after, Hey, we've got this great contractor. Oh, they're a little pricey. We're going to go with the two guys in a truck idea, or Hey, we're going to actually source and procure all of the interior finishes for the project tile, lighting, plumbing fixtures, that kind of stuff. And that's another. item i've seen we've talked a lot about how do you create systems how do you build good relationships with good team members where you're kind of breaking you're breaking that mold and could it work maybe can it also end horribly bad for everyone involved yes and so you can talk about
35:50 Stephen Husted: mine later right but those
35:53 Peter Gray: are i think the early feasibility getting too excited or too locked into one concept is I see a lot of people get struggling. They struggle there early on. And then later on, trying to save $100 on tile is never worth it if all of a sudden you delay the project two weeks and you've got hard money financing going on it.
36:11 Stephen Husted: Yeah. Yeah. This last dadu that we were currently almost finishing, over the years, I've been the designer. And it was a role that I loved to play. And I just did it for years. But I've now learned that... I need to step away from that role. My role is not to play designer. I have a designer friend. She can take it on. And it was interesting. We got down to the point where we're picking tiles and finishes and floors and paint. And I'm like going down that rabbit hole. But for me, that takes me hours to do. Hours and hours and hours.
36:47 Stephen Husted: Which I did before.
36:49 Stephen Husted: But that's not the best use of my time. And I've learned now that if you... It's good to hire somebody that
36:56 Stephen Husted: can do that for you because
36:58 Stephen Husted: they can do it faster and more efficient. You can have a vision. You can have that vision of the project, be a part of it, and make decisions on yes or no for things, but leave it to somebody else to dial that in because it's going to save you time and money and stress too.
37:18 Peter Gray: And stress. Oh, that's a huge piece. That's one thing. Our office, we have done interiors for projects of varying scales from large custom single family to dad use and helped in that space. But we found at the end of the day that I'd rather have a smaller kind of piece of the pie and leave that to, like you said, somebody who's a true expert in it. Because,
37:39 Stephen Husted: well, I may look
37:41 Peter Gray: at land use code every day. I may look and chat with structural engineers about how to build, how
37:46 Stephen Husted: to actually.
37:47 Peter Gray: construct structures every day i don't look at tile every day that's not something that's in our daily wheelhouse and it extends your time on a project immeasurably when you're not focused in on that specific piece of it and so that's actually why for us for all of our projects now for any interior components we're always partnering with specific interior design teams especially on a lot of our high-end residential projects
38:13 Stephen Husted: So this would be a good thing to lead into. What is the difference between hiring an architect and a designer? Because sometimes people don't understand. Like some people think that architect is the one that's designing things out and picking finishes and things like that. But they're
38:26 Stephen Husted: two separate roles.
38:28 Stephen Husted: You got designers that picking cabinets and pools and paint colors and tile. And the architect is. Doing more the technical aspects of the project and making sure that it's to code.
38:43 Peter Gray: Right. Yeah, that's a huge piece of it. I think back to my licensure process of becoming a licensed architect. And it is interesting. There is no design part of that test. They don't care if you know how to design at all, which is kind of ironic. But the big pieces of that test are health, safety,
39:04 Stephen Husted: welfare.
39:05 Peter Gray: And that is the biggest piece of hiring an architect is understanding both the details and minutia of the land use code as well as the building codes. And this is another big piece. Just because land use code allows for it may not translate into does the building code allow for it. And that's actually another good one that we've gotten tripped up on before where. Land use says, sure, go ahead. And you look at the building code and go, oh, wait, that's actually going to create some issues because of egress, because of fire ratings, because of, again, the technical side of the process that is super critical to getting it built and making sure that the building is of good quality, meets all the fire codes and regulations, and marries up with the design and land use aspirations of the project. So that's the biggest one, I think, between kind of the architecture hat to wear versus the designer hat. The designers are, again, focused on finishes, focuses on those interior experiences in a kitchen. How is the lighting working? How are the drawer pulls feel? Those kind of things where architects do get down to that minutia. Not all of us do. I've learned over the years to stay in my lane of what I'm very good at and then hire people for those other components of the project.
40:22 Stephen Husted: Yeah, my designer friend, his really focuses on windows. She's big on windows and she taught me some really cool things on one of our projects that we did. It was a flip. And I remember we went into this, we did an addition and we added a kitchen and it was vaulted ceilings and we had skylights. And she came in and she saw the island and she said, these skylights. are off balanced you should have had these over to the wall here and they should have been directly over the island and i just remember i looked up and i was like shit
40:56 Stephen Husted: she's right it was
41:01 Stephen Husted: one of those lessons and like it stuck with me that was one of the things and now every time i can't every project we do i'm always like window placement where are these windows going what's it look like from the outside yeah all
41:13 Peter Gray: from her huge It's huge. And that's something that we really, it's why we always work in 3D, right? Because looking at the 2D plan, you don't always understand the visual of what is out that window, where is it going? It's something that we try to do on a lot of these, especially as tight urban infill projects is not only going and walking the site, but putting a drone up. Seeing at each level, hey, what is eye level on the second story? What is eye level on the third story? Doing a big rotation, thinking about the model. What are you looking at? Do you really want that window in the bathroom to be looking directly across at your neighbor's house? Those pieces of the pie are really critical to kind of what I would consider is the X factor in good development versus just okay development. They're the things that may not necessarily increase the overall value of the project but they sell
42:07 Stephen Husted: it faster they
42:08 Peter Gray: get people more excited about it it drives that engagement with people is it's kind of that that missing why factor sometimes that really does help it's why we definitely always model kitchens windows all in 3d i may not exactly get the cabinets perfect compared to how a designer would do it but i always take a really good stab at some of those elements and then we do a big handoff meeting where we like to collaborate with whomever is going to find all those just to make sure they hear where we've been coming from because i've been chatting with you on say a project for six months and they're just starting off and so i think that handover is a really critical piece to go from the architect to the designer
42:48 Stephen Husted: yeah well on
42:50 Stephen Husted: ours I think we only made a couple of changes to windows, but there wasn't that much. And then some interior changes to like the primary bathroom door. And I think that's an interesting. So do you recommend investors that are doing these types of projects to hire a designer as well up front? Or do you think it's a beneficial role for the project? Or do you think you can do that between the contractor? So sometimes just that's all they're doing is they're. They do construction. Like they're not designers.
43:22 Peter Gray: Yeah. And I think that's, again, it depends with the contractor. I have contractors that I work with that I come with questions as the architect and say, Hey, what do you think about this? Because I trust their judgment and I've seen how they approach projects. And then there are other contractors where I very clearly am going to say, Hey, here are the plans, please build it. And I think for smaller projects, you don't necessarily need. That designer, I would say to everybody, lean on the architect as much as possible for understanding some of those macro level decisions. Your architect may not be able to give you the best call on a paint color. I think, you know, on the inside, each stylistic approach, you can kind of get around that, that need in some cases, but definitely trying to put together, as you mentioned, mood boards, what is your concept? What are those big ticket items? And then the rest of the team can work off of those, but you have those guiding rails. is a really big piece as, again, a translation from the massing and the big picture elements down to those details.
44:24 Stephen Husted: I got a question for you.
44:25 Stephen Husted: So when
44:26 Stephen Husted: a client hires you and you start to work on their behalf, what are you doing behind the scenes? What you're doing? Because a lot of it's just getting done. There's some back and forth through emails and things that you have to pay for. But walk us through the steps that are going on.
44:43 Stephen Husted: Yeah.
44:44 Peter Gray: I mean, first off, before I even meet a client or have a first conversation, I always try and get the address of the project.
44:51 Stephen Husted: So that's
44:53 Peter Gray: a big piece for us. Even if I don't even have a contract signed, I'd much rather spend 30 minutes of my time reviewing the site, looking at it on Google Street View. What's the zoning? What's this and that? So I can, one, come prepared to have a good conversation about their project and be able to answer some intentional questions. So that's like a big one is front loading work before I even meet clients. regardless of the project size, even if we're doing, you know, I'm working right now on a custom 5,500 square foot monster of a house. That's, I think we're, I think our budget's over 5 million now down to a small scale remodel edition on an existing residence. But the key is, is front loading those questions. And then as you're going through the design process in the backend, it's a lot of re-reviewing notes. from conversations. It's a lot of making sure that, Stephen, you mentioned you wanted outdoor space. As we're going through the design process, sometimes I'll even just put sticky notes on the side of my screen of what are those core elements that we picked up on during those conversations to make sure that we're wrapping those back into the project somehow. And so that's a really critical piece. And then the other one is having kind of offline conversations with the other team members where it's, hey, I'm chatting with structural engineer. Hey, I'm chatting with civil engineer. I'm chatting with the design, interior design team, Arborist, whomever it is, especially if there is a problem or if something has come up and saying, hey, we've got a conflict. I always am going to go to say, pick the structural engineer, for example. Structural engineer really needs a column somewhere we really don't want a column. Okay, I'm going to go have that conversation on the side. we're going to find a solution that we think is going to meet the client's needs and implied directive before we ever even bring that problem to the client's attention. And I think that's a really critical piece of making sure the project moves smoothly.
46:50 Stephen Husted: Because if I just
46:51 Peter Gray: brought that to you during the design process and said, oh, hey, we don't know what to do here. What do we do? that's not helpful. That doesn't move the project forward. And that having those offline conversations to strategize into maybe we don't have a fantastic solution, but we have A, B, or C, and then taking those three options to you and saying, hey, where do you think priority lies within these options? This helps that conversation and always helps us move forward.
47:20 Stephen Husted: Yeah, there's so many moving parts of all that. I saw a lot of the emails, especially with the civil. It's so fascinating to me. the process because there is so many people involved because it's almost like you got team investor architect
47:37 Stephen Husted: civil right
47:39 Stephen Husted: and then you
47:40 Stephen Husted: got the city and
47:43 Stephen Husted: what they think you know i mean and they have to work
47:46 Stephen Husted: together cohesively to
47:48 Stephen Husted: get this project to the finish line and people interpret things differently
47:54 Stephen Husted: Yeah, as well.
47:57 Peter Gray: That is the hardest part of my job is the interpretation component, especially as it relates to building and land use code. Because what you may say is an appropriate resolution or how something fits together. The city may interpret it differently and it's never really written down sometimes. And certain jurisdictions are better about releasing kind of directors reports on how they're going to interpret something. So at least as a roadmap. But that's another big thing I would say to anyone looking to develop or to invest is.
48:32 Peter Gray: find good teams across the spectrum of who their needs are that have good relationships with the municipality that you're working in there is nothing more powerful than picking up the phone and calling the zoning reviewer or the building reviewer the fired marshal and saying hey i'm stuck on this line of code it is a big impact on our project can you help me work through this and make sure we're aligned doing that especially ahead of Submitting for permit saves you massive headaches later during the process.
49:05 Stephen Husted: But yeah,
49:06 Stephen Husted: I've reached out to, for example, City Light. I've had Zoom meetings with them. On the commercial side, on one project, it's going to go more than four units. It's going to be six units total. So now it's a commercial. Okay, who's that? Oh, it's this lady? Okay,
49:20 Stephen Husted: let's have a Zoom meeting. And he's like,
49:23 Stephen Husted: oh, nobody really requests a Zoom meeting. I'm like, well, I want to introduce myself. Is there any kind of valuable information you can give me just so that I know how you guys work? To try to understand the other side as much as possible, because there's so many aspects to it.
49:40 Peter Gray: There are. Oh, there absolutely are. And it's one thing that I try and bring to the equation, too, is asking questions back. Yes, I wear the hat of the architect, but I also want to ask questions about who's the contractor? How do they want to build? I always... request at least that we have a construction review fairly early on in that process because just because i can design something or we can draw it up doesn't mean we can build it and i think that's another critical piece of that is is asking questions back from my side i always ask about finances what are your financial goals here i'm not the one writing the pro forma but Unless I understand the real budget and I understand the guardrails associated with that, it kind of makes it impossible to work. And I think about a couple of projects in particular where, as I did with one single family project, where the clients came to me and they said, oh, we've got a budget of X and we want to do this house and this and that. And we start working through the design process. And their goals and their needs are not in any way aligned with that budget. And that's a hard conversation to have to try and bridge that gap. And I think asking those questions on my side too, whether it's for a development, hey, what's your goal return on this? Do you have comps in the area that you're trying to compete against? How can we outperform them? That's a huge piece from a development side. From the single family, more owner-occupied side is really the budget. Are you trying to meet the market? Do you mind overshooting the market, but you're going to live here for 30 years. So the market will kind of come to you in some cases. All those pieces are really critical to
51:23 Peter Gray: best align the project and making sure everyone's happy at the end of the day. Yeah.
51:28 Stephen Husted: Yeah. There's,
51:30 Stephen Husted: yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of moving parts to that. You know, it's interesting that when you're bringing this up with the one that you did for me. Yeah. I am. being cautious and trying
51:44 Stephen Husted: to understand.
51:45 Stephen Husted: Was it true that we are one of the first middle housing permits that got issued?
51:51 Stephen Husted: Yeah. I don't know what we were.
51:54 Peter Gray: Yeah. One of the first because we hit kind of this
51:56 Stephen Husted: butter zone. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
51:58 Peter Gray: Actually, it was a great thing because we actually hit this kind of butter zone
52:03 Stephen Husted: where middle
52:05 Peter Gray: housing was allowed. It was codified. We could submit for it. We weren't trying to design it as something that hadn't been passed yet by the city council. So we did that, but we actually got in before other requirements took place. And so I think that was an interesting piece. Yeah. So there was an ordinance passed in October, November. Don't quote me on that. That added a few design standards. It added a few amenity requirements. It added a few other things. Not that would have been showstoppers, but it was a few of the things that we just didn't have to quantify in the design. And so it's this unique piece that we kind of got the best of both worlds on that.
52:47 Stephen Husted: So I
52:48 Stephen Husted: think the difference with this project is this one we are selling. So this one we're selling it. And I guess what makes me nervous a
52:56 Stephen Husted: little bit,
52:57 Stephen Husted: but I know there's ways around everything,
52:59 Stephen Husted: but.
53:00 Stephen Husted: This one is pushing the budget higher than what your typical thousand square foot
53:05 Stephen Husted: footprint would be.
53:07 Stephen Husted: We're up in the half a million range and I'm trying to understand
53:12 Stephen Husted: comps
53:13 Stephen Husted: and not only comps, but this product is bigger than your typical
53:19 Stephen Husted: DADU.
53:21 Stephen Husted: It's in an alley, but it's a finished alley. So it's a good alley. I know it's got a great location, but it's behind a house. Everything around that alley looks good. Okay, cool. I approached it in a way that we got the two-car garage, which I think is a huge
53:39 Stephen Husted: value.
53:41 Stephen Husted: I see a lot of projects that don't have parking or they have one outside. And I just feel like even though you can take the parking away and it's not required, I just don't understand that. I think you need parking. People have cars. And I don't know, for me in Seattle, I'd want a garage. When it's rainy, I just want to get in my car and drive away. I don't want to walk two blocks to get to my car or whatever. So I'm curious to see where this project goes and where the buyers see the value because it's what you said, it's middle housing. It's different. It's different than your typical thousand square foot footprint. And I'm going to be the, I guess I'm going to be the trailblazer a little bit on this one, but I'm worth it. I'm willing to take that risk and to see what this product can do out there.
54:25 Peter Gray: Yeah. But I also think that because
54:27 Stephen Husted: we're an early adopter,
54:29 Peter Gray: that's going to create a competitive advantage that you may not quite be seeing yet in the market because that you created this value with this additional size, with the additional parking that at the end of the day doesn't. It's not exponentially more expensive, but it's not even linearly more expensive because the most expensive part of the project is starting. And that first square foot that you build is the most expensive. And when you go from a thousand square feet to 1200 square feet or 1200 to 1400 square feet, usually you can see some cost value price per square foot compression because. Usually that square footage is not in bathrooms and cabinets. It's in slightly larger bedrooms. It's in closets. It's in storage spaces. All those auxiliary elements to a project that make it really functional and livable that
55:19 Stephen Husted: everybody looks for,
55:20 Peter Gray: but actually is in kind of the construction world, carpeted square footage. And that's inexpensive to build. So I'm hopeful that there's some competitive advantages there in that marketplace too for you.
55:33 Stephen Husted: I think the house itself, the floor plan, everything is super cool. Like that, I know. We had that vision. You executed it perfectly for us. And I feel like it's giving a potential buyer
55:48 Stephen Husted: what
55:50 Stephen Husted: they need for that location. And I think that's really the key to it all. The garage, I think, like I said, is such a big play to it all. The two-car garage side by side is pretty amazing. And I think there's going to be... Wouldn't it have parking to the right of the unit as well? For whom do you think? Or maybe for a small car?
56:09 Peter Gray: Maybe. My best guess is it's probably actually where storage or trash cans or other stuff is going to inevitably end up realistically. But I think you touched on a great point there that good, thoughtful design also helps protect your downside risk, especially when taking advantage of new zoning that... hasn't really been tested by the market yet in terms of a for sale product.
56:32 Peter Gray: And so again, trying to really think about what do people really want? What does that specific area buyer looking for? And at least to me on paper, I feel like we executed really well and I'm excited to see,
56:44 Stephen Husted: see how it sells.
56:47 Stephen Husted: Yeah. Probably what's going to happen is it's going to get finished and I'm going to go, no,
56:50 Stephen Husted: I don't want to sell it.
56:55 Stephen Husted: I get like this every time there's a project getting finished. Well, the main house is almost done and we just finished another project that's in planning. The single family is finished. And I'm like, yeah, I want to keep this. We try to keep it all, but you can't. You got to sell some to recapitalize and move on to your next project. I got a question for you because I get this
57:16 Stephen Husted: asked to
57:17 Stephen Husted: me a lot. Do you think anybody can develop? Even a beginner investor, somebody who's not bought an investment property,
57:27 Stephen Husted: can somebody,
57:28 Stephen Husted: just a complete beginner, do a development?
57:32 Stephen Husted: Short answer, yeah.
57:33 Peter Gray: Yeah. I think anybody can jump in and do this. I think the
57:38 Stephen Husted: biggest component before
57:40 Peter Gray: you jump in is understanding your
57:42 Stephen Husted: own
57:43 Peter Gray: financial risk profile. Big. is huge is what is your exposure and what are you willing to invest and willing to risk? Because it's not for the faint of heart because of the timeline. I think that's the biggest thing that I would say to anybody wanting to get into this is yes, first time, absolutely. Kind of nominally anyone can do it if you have the wherewithal and the interest,
58:09 Stephen Husted: but
58:10 Peter Gray: it's going to take longer than you anticipate. And so really having kind of that disciplined approach to what are your goals, setting them early, and always looking back at them is critical as well as having patience. Because not everything will go right, especially not on your first one. I think we've already alluded to that a lot throughout these stories. And having that patience is going to be critical to success.
58:39 Stephen Husted: Yeah, and you just have to... I think the biggest thing
58:42 Stephen Husted: that I could tell
58:43 Stephen Husted: somebody who's a new investor that wants to develop is one of the biggest things, and I said a lot, is you just have to do enough research up front to understand what you're getting yourself into. Hire a really good team. If you can nail your team correctly and get all the right pieces to that, you're already winning.
59:05 Stephen Husted: Be flexible.
59:10 Stephen Husted: Understand there's going to be issues. And the patience part is huge. Development is a longer game. It's not as simple as buying a small single family, rehabbing it, and then turning it into a rental. There's a lot of moving parts to it. And another thing is to stay really organized. Be really organized. Especially on your first one, everything that you go through, you should be documenting and trying to systemize it. Especially if you're going to do it again, if you're thinking this is something you want to take on, you have to have systems in place. You have to. And we live in Nara now with technology and AI
59:52 Stephen Husted: that...
59:55 Stephen Husted: You got a lot of power behind you. If you know how to use it, you can dial in all kinds of things using AI. And I think that's another big key to using it. Don't lean on it 100% and think that it's going to replace your architect or your contractor's bid and nothing. But it gives you some baselines to work with and to do. You know, for me, what I love about development is I just love to go from something that's not even there. a vision getting the vision put into play and make it to reality and see it done it's like wow there's this cool new home that somebody can either live in or rent and i'm providing housing and it's going to be there for
01:00:41 Stephen Husted: a very long time
01:00:42 Stephen Husted: and i think that part of it is absolutely amazing it is actually my favorite part of the whole equation but Interesting enough, one of my first jobs or careers I wanted to have was to be an architect when I was a kid. And the funny thing is, in seventh grade, I had a drafting class. And I thought it was the coolest thing. And I remember arguing with my teacher that
01:01:16 Stephen Husted: I wanted to make a modern home.
01:01:18 Stephen Husted: And he wanted this like traditional, like, I'm like, no, I want this here and this there. And funny enough, we made a house in this class. And now you fast forward decades
01:01:32 Stephen Husted: later, I
01:01:33 Stephen Husted: have a gentleman that was in my class who lives in Seattle, reached out to me on Facebook and said, wow, Stephen, you really took that drafting class serious. I helped you build your foundation for your house. and he's like and it's so cool to see you building houses now like you did this it was interesting because he was telling he's like oh yeah you were kind of thinking out of the box on certain things and he was the guy that helped me build my foundation and supposedly my mom has the house in her attic somewhere so i'm trying to find it but i think it's gonna be interesting to bring it out so i think that if
01:02:10 Stephen Husted: you've for
01:02:11 Stephen Husted: anyone that wants to start and wants to get into development, whether you're in California, Washington, Oregon, I'm just going to name those three because that's kind of the big states that are doing it right now. I think it's really rewarding on all kinds of levels, not only financially, but also just the fact that you're providing housing that's going to be there for a long time.
01:02:31 Peter Gray: There's nothing greater than that placemaking component. I think every architect and developer would also say that. satisfaction of a job well done, walking through a project at Key Handover after
01:02:43 Stephen Husted: sometimes
01:02:44 Peter Gray: years on projects, depending upon what
01:02:48 Stephen Husted: the specifics of that is,
01:02:49 Peter Gray: is extremely satisfying. And I love that concept. I am very excited to see my work in 15 years and 20 years and 50 years
01:02:59 Stephen Husted: of what
01:03:01 Peter Gray: new life has someone else brought to it. And where has it gone? And hopefully some of it's still there. I think that's a really unique part of our industry that you don't often see in other fields.
01:03:13 Stephen Husted: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, people could walk someone and go, that's a Peter Gray design.
01:03:18 Peter Gray: Do you know what I mean? That's true. Yeah. It's
01:03:20 Stephen Husted: cool like that. I mean, it's really just a really cool thing, but I appreciate you jumping on today. And I also have to say that I have to appreciate, give the shout out to my
01:03:30 Stephen Husted: assistant.
01:03:32 Peter Gray: Absolutely.
01:03:33 Stephen Husted: Really kind of nudging me to hire you. And like I said, it was nothing against you. You're great. Yeah. But once again, I get my team around me and I'm like, okay, there's, I got the team solved. I'm moving on to the next thing, but I'm glad that I did. And it was just amazing to work with you on this one. And I feel like we did something. We started something special. It's going to get going now. And yeah, maybe we can bring you back on after I finish it.
01:03:57 Peter Gray: We could talk about that too. That'd be great. Yeah. I'd love to. Talk about it once it's done.
01:04:01 Stephen Husted: There's going to be a lot to talk about. The project. Did I sell it? Did I
01:04:05 Stephen Husted: keep it?
01:04:09 Stephen Husted: Right on.
01:04:10 Stephen Husted: Cool. Well, Peter,
01:04:11 Stephen Husted: you have a good rest of your day. And hey, maybe I'll see you out there. I'm going to fly out to Seattle next week.
01:04:16 Peter Gray: Oh, I'd love to have you come by.
01:04:18 Stephen Husted: It was great chatting with you today.
01:04:19 Stephen Husted: Thanks, Peter. Take care.
01:04:20 Stephen Husted: You too.
∎ Podcast Outro:
01:04:21 Stephen Husted: Thank you for tuning into our show, where we hope you found inspiration and gained valuable insights. If you enjoyed this conversation and want to stay updated on our latest episodes, be sure to subscribe to our podcast and share it with others who might benefit from it. We appreciate your support and look forward to bringing you more candid conversations and breakthrough moments in the future. Until next time, take care and keep exploring new ideas and strategies.
