Episode 72 - Sam Haack on Luxury Real Estate, Wealth, and Wyoming Living

In this episode, we are joined by Sam Haack to discuss the unique real estate market in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, and how lifestyle, wealth preservation, and a limited land supply continue to drive demand in one of the most exclusive mountain towns in the country. Sam shares his journey from living in a camper and rollerblading to a property management interview to eventually becoming a co-owner at Berkshire Hathaway in Jackson Hole. We also talk about the massive COVID real estate boom, why buyers from California, Texas, and New York moved into Wyoming, and how the market has evolved since then.

Stephen and Sam also talked about:

00:00 – Introduction to Jackson Hole and Sam’s story
03:20 – Moving to Wyoming and living in a camper
06:00 – Rollerblading to a property management interview
07:30 – The COVID boom in Jackson Hole real estate
11:00 – Why Jackson Hole has limited housing supply
15:20 – Learning luxury real estate and high-net-worth clients
18:40 – Authenticity, wealth, and client relationships
24:20 – House hacking and investing locally
31:00 – Affordable housing and the future of housing markets
39:50 – Social media, Gen Z, and life in Jackson Hole

TRANSCRIPT

∎ Teaser / Highlighted Clip

00:00 Sam Haack: And you know, what's an interesting dynamic here in Jackson is, you know, one of my listings, like two and a half million dollar homes under contract. Well, at first you say, how are these people affording this? But then you get a parent added to. the contract or you see a gift come in or something like that. And there's just a huge transfer of wealth happening right now from the boomers to the millennials and Gen Z. And it's going to create, I think, more issues in Jackson, but also nationally for those that receive inheritance, money, et cetera, or parental help and those that don't. And it's going to perpetuate the wealth divide, assuming those people who inherit are managing that money correctly.

00:41 Stephen Husted: Yeah, you're absolutely right. And not everybody gets inheritance or has parents that have money. But, you know, we definitely do see this in Silicon Valley.

00:49 Stephen Husted: I see a lot of parents helping their kids out or, you know, they're buying houses with ADUs and the family's moving in. I'm Stephen Husted and you're listening to The Breakthrough Podcast, a space designed for clarity, curiosity and the stories that move us. Here, we step away from the noise and into the moments that define us. the early influences, the hidden struggles, and the breakthroughs that reshape our lives. From personal reinvention to building a life through real estate and entrepreneurship, these conversations remind us that success isn't a straight line. It's a series of honest decisions, brave actions, and small shifts that change everything. This is where those stories live. Let's begin.

∎ Guest Introduction:

01:35 Stephen Husted: Today's guest is Sam Hack, a real estate agent and co-owner of a brokerage based in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, one of the most competitive and high-value real estate markets in the country. Sam's journey is anything but traditional, from living in a camper and working at a bank to breaking into property management and eventually becoming a co-owner in just a few years. His story is a real example of taking action before you feel ready. In this episode, we talk about real estate investing in luxury and lifestyle-driven markets, what makes places like Jackson Hole so unique, and how understanding people is just as important as understanding deals. We also dive into building a real estate career from scratch, working with high net worth clients, and spotting opportunities in evolving markets. If you're into real estate, investing, or entrepreneurship, there's a lot to take away from this. one. 

∎ Podcast Proper:

02:34 Stephen Husted: Sam, welcome to the Breakthrough Podcast.

02:36 Sam Haack: Thanks for having me on, Stephen. It's a pleasure to meet you.

02:38 Stephen Husted: Yeah. How's everything been going?

02:40 Sam Haack: Awesome. Yeah. I've been lucky to have been recording a few podcasts recently. It's always fun to connect with people out of state and other real estate professionals that are killing it.

02:48 Stephen Husted: And you've got a pretty interesting story. As I was talking to my team earlier, usually I'll get the notes on my guest. you know, a couple of days before. And so it's always intriguing to watch, listen to and see all the cool information of their story and where they've come from. And you've got a pretty unique story and you're in a really cool market. That's very interesting. Jackson Hole, Wyoming. Definitely.

03:11 Sam Haack: Didn't think I would be here today, but yeah,

03:14 Stephen Husted: let's do it. It's a unique market, correct?

03:17 Sam Haack: It really is. It's a mountain town. feel. The main crown jewel is Jackson Hole Mountain Resort, but we also have the national parks. So primarily second homes, Airbnb properties. We have a lot of full-time residents, of course, but it's such a destination that it's geared towards vacationers and people that want to escape the real world, as we say.

03:37 Stephen Husted: Where are most people coming from in the United States that have second homes, typically?

03:42 Sam Haack: Yeah, it's a really good mix. We kind of break it down regionally, but as of recently, our main... the movers are from california texas and new england or i should say new york northeast although we see people from chicago and then recently we've gotten a lot of international buyers interested in this market too particularly brazil actually because they have a big western culture down there and they like country music and it's a huge country and yeah they maybe they want to do a little skiing i don't know if they have any skiing in brazil

04:10 Stephen Husted: Yeah, I don't think so. Yeah, that's really cool. And what are the typical buyers looking for the most part? What are they trying to achieve? What's their goals?

04:20 Sam Haack: Yeah, it's sort of subjective, but it's really lifestyle when it comes down to it. We have kind of the best of both worlds, which is a super favorable tax structure in Wyoming. So no state income tax, no corporate income tax. There's really amazing trust structures that you can set up and low property taxes relative to our high property values. So there's both the wealth play, wealth preservation play, but also lifestyle because we have so many amazing amenities and you might not get a lot for your money when you look at property relative to metro markets, but you're sort of buying into the great outdoors, and you're able to benefit from all of that too with your purchase.

05:05 Stephen Husted: And why is it structured like that? Because you always hear about LLCs, Farmington, Wyoming, and just everything's favorable, no state taxes. How did it all come about like that?

05:06 Sam Haack: Yeah,I think Wyoming being so lowly populated, we have 500,000 people in the entire state. had to create some incentives for people to come here and build a life here or to invest money here. And so not only is that a consideration, but our oil and gas industry is really large in Wyoming and it's a really important part of our state budget. So without them, we wouldn't be able to have no income tax, no corporate income tax. They really sort of carry the tax bill for us and we're grateful for that. So although we really care about the environment and preservation. And utilizing the great outdoors here, we really have to keep in mind that oil and gas is keeping us afloat as well.

05:47 Stephen Husted: How long have you, were you born and raised in Wyoming or did you come there from a different state?

05:52 Sam Haack: Yeah, I actually moved from Wisconsin after I graduated from UW-Madison, but I was born on the East Coast in Connecticut. And we moved around a lot as a family growing up. We lived in New York and Minnesota. Then I ended up in boarding school and I went to Wisconsin for college. And so having that structure growing up, I really wanted a place to call home and I found it here in Jackson. I've been here almost seven years now.

06:14 Stephen Husted: Walk me through when you first went to Wyoming, did you know right away that you wanted to move there? Like what did you see?

06:20 Sam Haack: I didn't do a preview. I just straight up accepted a job right unseen and didn't even have a place to live because even back pre

06:28 Stephen Husted: -COVID era,

06:29 Sam Haack: housing was super difficult to obtain, even a rental house. So I took a job at Bank of Jackson Hole. My major in college were econ and political science. So I was like, I guess I have to take the finance route. Worked at Bank of Jackson Hole for a couple of months. Lived in my teardrop camper that I towed out from Wisconsin. And then finally found a rental, sold the camper and realized I can't be in under fluorescent lights all day wearing a tie and loafers if I'm in Jackson Hole. So I got into real estate shortly after that where I could be outside and enjoy this community for what it is.

07:03 Stephen Husted: And how did you get into real estate?

07:06 Sam Haack: It was a... like a natural progression sort of, but I first started out, I mean, as a child, my dad had a couple investment properties and he would get a couple hundred bucks in the mail every month. And I just thought that was incredible. I was like, wait, you just sort of saved up money and made a good decision and then benefit from this every month. So that planted the seed. Then when I got to Wisconsin in my fraternity house, I was leasing bedrooms. to my fraternity brothers. I was the house manager,

07:34 Sam Haack: you know, volunteer role, but I was doing repairs and fixing things that the guys destroyed in the house. And it was 35 guys living under one roof. So I was kind of responsible for that. And I thought, wow, if I enjoy doing this with all these hooligans, maybe I'll enjoy the career path. So I got picked up by the property management company that did college housing in section eight in Madison and learned a ton.

07:57 Stephen Husted: from the

07:58 Sam Haack: owner of that company. And then when I moved out to Jackson Hole, trying to course correct back into the finance world, it didn't work. I hated it and had to get back into property management and real estate here.

08:09 Stephen Husted: And so that's where you started off. Your real estate journey was basically in property management out in Wyoming, like when you finally moved, when you moved there.

08:16 Sam Haack: Yeah, so this was funny. I'm always reminiscing on the good old days in 2019, but every lunch break at the bank, I would open the newspaper and look at job openings for just something different because I knew I needed to change. And I really wasn't making much money and I was really poor. I just got out of college. So I found one job opening at a property management company that was probably half a mile away. And I only had time to do the interview on my lunch break. Well, I was renting my car out on Turo to get some... ancillary income. And the only thing I had to get to work and to get to this interview were rollerblades. So I put my rollerblades on at work and I rollerbladed down the sidewalk a mile to this job interview, took them off around the corner, walked into the interview all sweaty. And it just so happened the guys who ran the property management company had also gone to UW-Madison and were from the Madison area. Perfect connection. Super natural fit. Yeah,

09:10 Stephen Husted: that is amazing. Yeah, that's a really, that's a cool story. And when you got into there, that really kind of set the stage.

09:17 Sam Haack: Yeah, it was like communicating with owners. And I think the owners of the property management company recognized that I had good soft skills. So they quickly promoted me from property manager to homeowner relations manager. And I was just in charge of keeping all the clients, all the homeowners happy, made them super aware of things going on in their home, anything we're repairing or vetting renters that were renting their properties. One of those clients eventually said, hey, I think you're even too smart for this. You shouldn't be worrying about our broken toilets and dented pans. You should be selling these homes. So they recommended me to the Berkshire Hathaway brokerage here in Jackson. And now I've worked my way up to be a co-owner.

09:56 Stephen Husted: Wow. That's amazing. In how many years?

09:59 Sam Haack: Six, six and a half.

10:02 Stephen Husted: That's cool. And so you went through the wild time of COVID.

10:06 Sam Haack: Yes. Oh my gosh.

10:07 Stephen Husted: I wish that wasn't the craziest market there.

10:09 Sam Haack: It was off the charts because we mentioned those lifestyle considerations. Everyone said, if we're going to be stuck at home, that home better be a compound, you know, with a

10:18 Stephen Husted: sauna and a pool and a gym

10:21 Sam Haack: and all the bells and whistles. And we can provide that here in Jackson.

10:25 Stephen Husted: So did you even have enough inventory during that period of time? And was the story relatively the same if the people were coming from California or New York or Texas? Was it just to escape? They wanted land. They wanted privacy. Was that the driving force for most people?

10:43 Sam Haack: I think it was. I wish I had gotten my license a little early to benefit from that huge boom because money was raining from the sky, but I was just getting started. So it was tough to do the learning phase and represent buyers. New agents normally start with buyers and then work their way into listings. But we lost out on every single deal we submitted an offer on because it was so competitive. But it was bidding wars and paying hundreds of thousands over asking price. And the story really was like lifestyle,

11:11 Stephen Husted: freedom.

11:12 Sam Haack: I mean, the policies around the country got a little draconian. It was... pretty crazy. So here in Wyoming, we were for the most part open. Counties and towns made their own decisions on COVID restrictions. But even if you weren't allowed to go to the bar or to the restaurant, you can go out your back door and hike up a mountain or go backcountry skiing.

11:30 Stephen Husted: Yeah. Everybody was outdoors back then. It was crazy. I remember I was mountain biking. I was going up a trail that, you know, it's pretty steep and it's pretty technical. It would typically be people that were really fit and should be there. And I just remember there was plenty of times when I'd go out there and I would see somebody trying to climb up. They're walking their bike and I can see that they had reflectors in their wheels and I knew that they weren't an active cyclist. And then what are you doing up here? And they're like, I'm lost. I'm like, you should go back the other way. Go all the way down and hang right at the trailhead and you can find your way. So it was an interesting time period back then too. It's cool where you were at because you have all the great outdoors. You could be doing anything you want. It's all outdoors. That's what everything's about for the most part.

12:19 Sam Haack: Yeah. And what's funny is we saw a rise in inventory just a couple of years after COVID restrictions kind of died down because everyone said. Well, either we're being called back to the office or we just don't need to be here anymore. And it was a necessity during that COVID time. But then it just became kind of a luxury. And some people started cutting back and realizing they could buy again in San Francisco, San Jose, Dallas, places like that.

12:44 Stephen Husted: And then what happened to the market then? Did it correct abruptly?

12:49 Sam Haack: Not abruptly. It's been a slow sort of, yeah, correction or it just regulated itself because. There's so much pent up demand for Jackson Hole and a lot of ski towns around the country that there's always a new buyer to fill in the supply. So really what we saw was just a normalization of the activity levels, higher days on market, more seller concessions, but not necessarily huge price drop. Just because as soon as there was a quick price drop, comparables

13:19 Stephen Husted: would support.

13:21 Sam Haack: that price or the price it was at before and someone would come in and scoop it up. So it's continued to be competitive, but it's certainly chilled out and buyers have a lot more power than they did during COVID.

13:32 Stephen Husted: Yeah. And it's not like there's tons of development going on everywhere. Jackson Hole is very unique in the way that they bring housing to the market for the most part, right?

13:42 Sam Haack: Yeah. Have you visited before? I should have asked.

13:45 Stephen Husted: No. Okay. I have not. Well, yeah. You bring up two videos. It's beautiful. Okay.

13:50 Sam Haack: Yeah, it is really unique, the land scarcity, the private land scarcity. So Teton County, which encompasses Jackson Hole, and Jackson Hole is the coquial name for the valley. And then we have the towns of Jackson and Wilson and Teton Village and Kelly, small towns throughout Jackson Hole and Teton County. And 97% of Teton County is public land.

14:10 Stephen Husted: So that's

14:12 Sam Haack: great for all of our recreation needs and conservation, but that leaves only 3% of

14:16 Stephen Husted: developable land. Wow.

14:19 Sam Haack: Of that 3%, about 90% is already developed. So there's barely anything to build on. And if you want to add inventory, you're basically tearing something down. It's been upzoned and you can add more units to that parcel. But it's really just like that real estate adage or land adage of they're not making any more of it. And that is true, you know, macro wise, but really true here in Jackson.

14:44 Stephen Husted: And that's probably a good thing. Some would say. Some would. Because if you just keep developing over and over, finally you got a full-on Metro City. That's just the reality to it. That's true.

14:55 Sam Haack: Yeah, and I always try to play both sides because I understand what the buyer's perspective is. We'd love a bunch of inventory to get dumped. lower pricing and correct the market that way. But also from the seller's perspective, this is the gold standard of investment property or appreciation potential, not just because of historical appreciation, but the protection to the downside. A national developer or national builder can't come in and put 500 track homes and kind of kill the supply side of the equation and balance things out. It's just really a slow growth mentality, both on natural constraints and governmental. regulations.

15:33 Stephen Husted: When was the last time they'd had a really big development that passed and went through and got built out?

15:38 Sam Haack: You know, I would think that the ones that are kind of on the docket right now that are in design review phase are the most, everyone is concerned about that and the community really shows up for these meetings and how many units and are they going to be deed restricted or not. The deed restrictions being for local workers to live in them or a certain income ceiling to be able to purchase them. But the one that comes to mind is the Virginian RV Park,

16:04 Sam Haack: just right outside of downtown Jackson. And it's been an RV park for all these vacationers and visitors over time. But the town bought and is partnering with a private developer to add hundreds and hundreds. I think it was like over 500 units, condominiums, townhomes. things like that. So there's a lot of these public-private partnerships that are also creating free market housing, but also deed-restricted workforce housing so that the developer can make money, but there's also a public good to the town and

16:34 Stephen Husted: the county. That makes sense. Yeah. That makes sense. Because the people that service the area with jobs and you need to have housing for them, they can't just be driving hours upon hours to get to work.

16:47 Sam Haack: Yeah. And that's, there are some bedroom communities like you have to go over the Teton Pass, which is West of Jackson, about 40 minutes, 35, 40 minutes to Victor, Idaho. And

16:58 Stephen Husted: a lot of our workforce lives over there. The

17:01 Sam Haack: current numbers show 60% of local workers still live in Teton County. 30% live over in. Teton County, Idaho, kind of our sister community. And then 10% live in Lincoln County, Wyoming, which is about 45 minutes south of Jackson, but they're not easily accessible. It's not like what happens in the winter. Yeah. Avalanches, black ice, traffic, car crashes. It's a really daunting proposition to live over there and to commute to and from every

17:29 Stephen Husted: single day. And where are you located?

17:32 Sam Haack: I'm in Jackson.

17:33 Stephen Husted: You're in Jackson. Okay. And then how far is your brokerage from your house?

17:38 Sam Haack: That's about five minutes. So that works. That's so good. Yep. Yeah. That's so perfect. When I'm not sleeping at the office, that is.

17:48 Stephen Husted: So how has that been going for you now that you got some years under your belt? Did you work under somebody? Did somebody mentor you when you got into real estate?

17:57 Sam Haack: Yes, I was first a solo agent and I got scooped up by another guy who also was a UW Madison graduate. We had a short stint together because

18:08 Stephen Husted: he

18:09 Sam Haack: relocated over to Teton Valley, Teton County, Idaho. But I learned a lot of good stuff from him, a lot of tactical sales techniques and things like that. But then I was at orphan again and I got picked up by the Harlan brothers and the Harlan brothers, Tim and Kurt, majority owners of. Berkshire Hathaway, Berkshire Jackson Hole. And they were looking for someone to help them with marketing and all things digital. So they're kind of, I think they're in their mid fifties and 60. And yeah, they just kind of needed like a Gen Z like myself who grew up on the internet to do social media and things like that. And we've seen a lot of growth and a lot of benefit from those things. And they bring the gray hair to the equation. You know, we go into listing meetings with older folks and we tend to win them because we bring the young, you know, the young energy and technology, but we also bring the experience and the maturity to it.

19:01 Stephen Husted: The full circle, because you can talk about experience, you know, long-term experience, and then, hey, this is how we're going to market your house. And we got a digital footprint, you know, here's what we're doing online. So that's like the whole thing, but it's sometimes hard to find in older agents. because they've been set in their ways and they have a book of business. And quite frankly, they don't want to jump into shooting content. It's true. You know what I mean? They feel like that's going to be just another job and it can, but that was a smart move on their part to bring you on.

19:35 Sam Haack: I do give them a lot of credit for... having the foresight to know where the industry was going and also to be open to bringing me on and supporting me for the first year. You know, they paid me a salary in order to do that kind of work for them. And that was very generous of them because they knew how hard it was and is to make it in Jackson. And that the financial component is big to be able to pay your bills and

19:57 Stephen Husted: to live a good life. Yeah, definitely. I mean, that's cool. I think that's a smart. I think it's good to be under somebody in the beginning. And just being around the right team, especially as a solo agent, unless some reason you got a book of business from whatever, however you got it, it's just good to be around the people that are doing it because you'll naturally, you know, grow with them as well. And when they get to that point where maybe they're getting ready to retire or they're slowing down and you're that one that's been there from the beginning, you are going to get that referral base at that time period too.

20:31 Sam Haack: It brings a ton of validation. to be working with older folks that have lots of experience and unlike maybe a metro market the age demographic is much older here and the quality of care has to be a lot higher you know really high net worth individuals are like hey we're not messing around here we have a 10 million dollar house and you can't screw this up for us so right being a 28 year old is like hard to win listing agreements without those guys so

20:59 Stephen Husted: how's it been With them, when you're going into a listing appointment and getting a listing, what have you learned working with people that have high net worths and that you're selling their houses that are at 10 million? What are they looking for first and foremost?

21:12 Sam Haack: Yeah, what I've learned is that you can't paint with

21:15 Stephen Husted: broad

21:16 Sam Haack: brushstrokes, right? You can't generalize these people, although in popular culture. all wealthy people are sort of generalized or billionaires generalized. And what I mean by that is they all come in different shapes and sizes and they've all made their money in different ways and they've had different paths in life. Some people started with nothing, some people started with everything. And it's important to recognize that and go into the listing agreements or the listing presentations or just initial meetings, consultations and get to know you type of things with being really authentic yourself. And also a level of curiosity, not to poke holes and ask them our whole life story, but just to get a feel for things like, hey, do you have a humbleness about you? Did you make money yourself or did you inherit it? Because the big difference between the two types of people is if you inherited it, you don't really know where your next dollar is going to come from because you don't know how to make money. But then for the other people that are self-made. they can make another dollar tomorrow, no problem, because they've done it their whole life and they've overcome adversity.

22:20 Sam Haack: I'm not, again, I don't want to overgeneralize those two groups, but it really is just important to get to know someone and also be your authentic self so they can decide if you're a good fit to work with them. And we just come from a really down to earth perspective and we don't drive Range Rovers and we don't do all super fancy stuff. There is a client that's better served by different brokers in our market for that.

22:43 Stephen Husted: There's an agent client for everybody. As much as you're interviewing them, they're interviewing you, but you nailed it on one thing. It was interesting. I was out in Seattle and I was meeting with agents and I went to dinner, had a dinner plan with one and I show up and I saw him online first. Then I show up and he brought his wife and he was wearing a sport coat. He was kind of dressed up. And I knew it was kind of uncomfortable. And, you know, we had dinner and we walked out and across the street, there was this really cool record store. And so we went into it and we're just talking.

23:16 Stephen Husted: And I go, dude, I know when I saw you online, you don't wear a spark cut like this. Why are you wearing this? I don't know, dude. I just, I don't know. I didn't know who, you know, I didn't know what you were going to think. I'm like, dude, just go put that in your car. You don't need to wear that shit.

23:31 Stephen Husted: That's awesome. And then that moment from right there, everything changed. His demeanor, how he talked to me, like the whole thing changed because, you know, let him know, just be yourself. I don't need that. I don't need that sales pitch. Just be yourself. And it's just interesting. So, you know, you really nailed it on that part that, you know, and it's okay. You can beat your authentic self and maybe somebody doesn't like you to win a listing. That's no big deal. Doesn't mean that much. There's going to be somebody else that does. And that's probably the relationship you actually really want to, you know, nurture.

24:03 Sam Haack: Yeah, it's not all about the money. It's not all about collecting listings. It's are you going to enjoy working with that person yourself? And from the jump, you may have to make some concessions about who you work for because you want to get up and running as a new agent. But once you've matured a little bit and you're a little more comfortable, then you really should be picky about who you work with because you're not going to enjoy it if you're not.

24:25 Stephen Husted: Not at all. Especially if it's going to be a long process. Even if it's 30 days, it could be the worst commission check you've ever had to go through. And that does take time because you're right. In the beginning, you want to build your business. You want to get referrals. You want to help clients out. And sometimes you'll take those ones that are difficult and it really will drain you, keep you up at night at some times too.

24:48 Sam Haack: And you do learn things and maybe it's important to take someone. that you assume to be a challenge every once in a while to continue your personal growth and business growth. Because if they're all easy, then you're not really growing as an agent. But vetting people also, tell me about your past professionals that you've hired. How was your relationship with your contractor when you built this home? I

25:07 Stephen Husted: just had a call two

25:08 Sam Haack: weeks ago and the guy said, I want to list my house and sell it with you, but I have to let you know I'm suing my contractor right now for a latent defect from nine years ago. There are some protections for Wyoming, you know, homeowners that built homes and some recourse for contractors, but basically that's the red flag and you should take note of that. I could be the best person to get sued, right? Nine years? Yeah. And there's like a 10 year statute of limitation kind of state bill or warranty,

25:39 Stephen Husted: but. Really? In Wyoming, there's a 10 year?

25:42 Sam Haack: Yeah, but it's sort of for latent defects, right? So it's subjective and you have to go argue whether or not it's a truly latent defect or if it was user created, right? So the leak could be user homeowner created, but also... Right,

25:57 Stephen Husted: exactly. So how'd that go with that particular client? On that phone

26:03 Sam Haack: call, I just said, I don't think it's going to be a fit. I'm sorry, but I've got... You know, you don't, you want to be really humble about it. You don't like I have all these clients. You don't say stuff like that, but you just said, I just don't think we're going to work well together. And I'm sorry. I have to decline and keep it simple.

26:18 Stephen Husted: Yeah. You're learning quick. Well,

26:22 Sam Haack: yeah. What's building business success and money for if you're not going to enjoy your life, you know, we should be optimizing for living a full long life and not just stacking cash. It's not everything.

26:34 Stephen Husted: You're absolutely right on that. You're absolutely right. I think there's got to be a combo of both. You really have to enjoy what you're doing and whatever you're doing in life. If you're doing it just for the money, you're just going to be miserable all the time. You have to be excited to wake up and get to work on what you're doing. Especially as an agent, do you invest as well?

26:56 Sam Haack: I have one investment property in Victor, Idaho. I had much grander ambitions as a college student. I was like, I'm going to build a portfolio of 250 units and retire by 35. Right. But moving to Jackson, it humbled me both on the pricing and on the lifestyle considerations that I don't need to just build a massive portfolio and nor can you super well locally, very quickly because of the higher price points. Our median list price right now is 6 million, 6 and a half million. So it's like tough, you know, to build quickly,

27:27 Stephen Husted: but. How far is your investment property from where you live?

27:32 Sam Haack: 35 minutes.

27:34 Stephen Husted: Okay. That's good. It's drivable. That's cool. And how's that been for you? I mean, well, you started, you were house hacking in college. You didn't know it. You're a house hacker. You were.

27:47 Sam Haack: And I use that same strategy for that property. It was buying this condo unit, had two beds, two bathrooms, got in there, rented out a room. The agent originally told me rents weren't going to cover, you know, even half the mortgage, but I caught it at the right time. And it was a product of timing where the property value doubled in

28:06 Stephen Husted: a year and a half because of COVID and the rents doubled as

28:09 Sam Haack: well. So now it's super healthy cashflow and I have a huge chunk of equity in it that I'm looking to deploy here.

28:17 Stephen Husted: Probably just get a

28:18 Sam Haack: better return on equity. If you will, there's $250,000 of equity in there that

28:23 Stephen Husted: could be.

28:24 Sam Haack: split up or i could refinance it or you know build

28:27 Stephen Husted: a little bit bigger

28:28 Sam Haack: portfolio from here what

28:29 Stephen Husted: do you think you're going to do so my the

28:35 Sam Haack: question is because i really walk the walk with my clients and i myself would want to own a property in each of these little towns that we work in and they're all unique and cool in their own ways and so i think just So refinancing it, pulling some equity out and putting that as a down payment for another property that has healthy cashflow would be a good way to go. Particularly in a town that I think has growth potential, like Alpine, Wyoming. It's 45 minutes south of Jackson and has a big reservoir and there's a boating community and it's really growing quickly. So just to kind of locally diversify, if you will. I think I could go out of state and probably buy three houses for $100,000 down payment, but I kind of like to stick to what I know

29:15 Stephen Husted: locally. There's something to be said about staying local and understanding those markets. And you also, you can tell that growth trajectory where it's going. Like you said, you see what's going on Alpine, you see with your own eyes. So it's a much easier way to jump into it and you can get to it. That's smart. What's the price point there?

29:35 Sam Haack: Median home price in Alpine, I think is 550,

29:38 Stephen Husted: 600.

29:39 Sam Haack: So it's way more approachable. And you just think about the jump from Alpine to Jackson. I think I want to say this. Alpine is part of a larger valley as well. You know, we mentioned Jackson Hole and these little towns in there. Alpine is a town within Star Valley. That's the median home price in Star Valley. But it gets cheaper and cheaper as you go further south towards Utah. And so I could go down to Afton and then the median home price down there is $350. 400. So there's just ways of scaling and positioning your equity in different ways. But I really think you can de-risk investing by being local and understanding the political changes and zoning changes and investment coming in or lack thereof. And that's important to me.

30:23 Stephen Husted: Yeah. It's very smart to be close to where your investment properties are. That's been one of the hardest things for me is investing out of state is sometimes you just want to go buy your property. There's something going on. Like I'm getting a violation. from, you know, the city for some random thing like cars parking in front of the house that are supposed to be where the grass is. I'm like, what? Really? So it's having to be able to go by there and get your eyes on things is a plus if you can. Not everybody can. Some people live in high cost areas and they have to invest out of there. But as far as Alpine is concerned, what is that job market? What are people doing for jobs there?

31:00 Stephen Husted: Yeah, good question.

31:01 Sam Haack: And it's a tough answer. I'm just curious because you're

31:04 Stephen Husted: talking about these areas. I'm just trying to understand how many different industries do you have?

31:08 Sam Haack: Yeah. So in general, our whole area, whether it's Teton Valley, Idaho, Jackson Hole, Star Valley down there and Alpine, it's service industry supporting housing, contractors and the trades, and

31:22 Stephen Husted: then tourism.

31:24 Sam Haack: And that's like our whole economy here. It's kind of insane. There are some really great glimmers of... entrepreneurship with local manufacturing and clothing brands and things like that but yeah the pillars are really real estate and tourism and so that you know it's not a very diversified economy some would say it's risky to invest here

31:43 Stephen Husted: but there's just such a large

31:45 Sam Haack: presence of second homeowners and out of state out of country wealth that sort of inject money into our economy for all these experiences and housing considerations. So that's what keeps us going. But I think the state and these counties are very business friendly and would love to see some more

32:01 Stephen Husted: diversified business growth. Yeah, business friendly is a big plus too on keeping things moving, especially when there's just a few industries, they want to support those ones to the fullest so that everybody that's around there can stay and live and thrive and not be pushed out. I mean, it's like where I live in San Jose. It's expensive here. I mean, low incomes, 150 grand. Totally. Low income.

32:29 Sam Haack: What's the median home price over there?

32:32 Stephen Husted: Like one six, one seven, one eight in that range, depending on the location. Metro market. Yeah. So it's still crazy.

32:40 Sam Haack: It's nationally, it's really tough. I feel for the younger generations.

32:44 Stephen Husted: Yeah. I just saw this video and it was actually a house really close to where I live. And it was a corner lot. And I'm still upset with myself for never reaching out to this particular homeowner during this time period. Because it was a house sitting right in the middle of this corner lot. It was kind of run down. Always had a bunch of cars in front. And all of a sudden, that house is gone. And they built a two-story, probably about 3,000 square foot home. But because it was on a corner, they added an ADU. And they built a 3-2. I think it was close to 1,100 square feet. No garage. Just had a driveway. No garage. And they sold that for a million six. Whoa.

33:29 Stephen Husted: Yeah. Like a 3,000 square foot lot. Crazy. No garage.

33:32 Sam Haack: But they were like, oh, now you have an ADU. You can rent it out and get some income to pay the mortgage.

33:37 Stephen Husted: Well, they condoized it. So they sold it off. Whoa. And they built it in a period where the market was kind of... High interest rates, market was slowing down. So the main house, both of the properties were kind of finished at the same time. And they sat on the market for a while. And I actually knew the agent personally, but they finally sold it. And I think they only sold, they sold the smaller ADU for about 50K less than what they listed it for, which was, they still did really good. But yeah, San Jose is super expensive. I mean, they're building, you know, high density.

34:14 Stephen Husted: apartment complexes that are for affordable housing and it's interesting to hear people talk about it like in the community oh it's gonna be affordable housing it's like some people are making like 130,000 a year that's more than my parents made and you're complaining about there's gonna be affordable housing who's gonna support everybody in the jobs and the service industry and all these different things you know they need housing too and they can't just be forced to drive two hours to get to work Yeah. I'm kind of curious to hear your thoughts on this, which is as

34:44 Sam Haack: a econ student in college, I really subscribed to the Austrian school of economics and it was really free markets. Like markets will self-regulate and correct themselves as needed and things like that. But, and I would assume this is kind of like a hypothetical situation, but if you just let the free market run free in Jackson or any mountain town or expensive areas, eventually the businesses would shutter and no one would be there to come to your house to do plumbing. or to work on your car or provide any service at all from top to bottom. And at that point, wealthy people who are scooping up these 10, $20 million homes would come to their senses and say, we need to make a change here and build some affordable housing for

35:24 Stephen Husted: our workforce because

35:25 Sam Haack: we want a strong community. This place isn't

35:27 Stephen Husted: what it is without it. It's not just

35:30 Sam Haack: about the national forest and the parks and the ski resort would even shut down without its employees, right? Right. Then there's governments that

35:39 Stephen Husted: sort of get

35:40 Sam Haack: out ahead of that. And they say, we see where this is

35:43 Stephen Husted: going and we're going to regulate accordingly.

35:46 Sam Haack: But what are your thoughts on that for San Jose or just in general? Should we let free markets do their market thing a little bit more or should we try backstop stuff before the issues happen?

35:59 Stephen Husted: I think it's just we need to build housing. In San Jose, just build more housing. We need to, and I think building affordable housing is not a problem in my eyes. And, you know, this is a particular street by my house that they're building a lot of affordable housing. And some of the community is complaining about, well, I think anytime there's some type of development, there's people complaining. I don't care what San Jose, there's just people that complain. And that's just the reality of it. But typically the people that are complaining are the ones that have lived. in that area for a very long time. They own their house outright. They don't really want any change, but they want that waiter to serve them food at a nice restaurant too.

36:40 Sam Haack: Yeah. And do those, when you say affordable housing, does that mean deed restricted by

36:44 Stephen Husted: the local government? Well, they build mid-rise apartment complexes and you have to qualify to live there. They don't build a lot of housing that is, I would say, affordable that somebody at 130 can buy in San Jose. It's pretty expensive, especially with high interest rates right now. It's even more expensive. A condo is 700,000, but you're going to have a $6,000 mortgage on it. It's crazy.

37:09 Sam Haack: And you know what's an interesting dynamic here in Jackson is, you know, one of my listings, like two and a half million dollar homes under contract. Well, at first you say, how are these people affording this? But then you get a parent added to. the contract or you see a gift come in or something like that. And there's just a huge transfer of wealth happening right now from the boomers to the millennials and Gen Z. And it's going to create, I think, more issues in Jackson, but also nationally for those that receive inheritance, money, et cetera, or parental help and those that don't. And it's going to perpetuate the wealth divide, assuming those people who inherit are managing that money correctly.

37:51 Stephen Husted: Yeah, you're absolutely right. And not everybody gets inheritance or has parents that have money. But we definitely do see this in Silicon Valley. I see a lot of parents helping their kids out or they're buying houses with ADUs and the family's moving in. Everybody's moving into the house. Definitely. That's a big thing that we see, especially for the Asian community, Indian community. We definitely see that they like. having adus where they can get the grandparents in there to watch the kids where the parents work in tech it's a big deal and they bring that down payment with them on top of the kids that are working in tech that have stock options and they can bring that so they just combine forces with their money i see a lot of that but not everybody has the opportunity you know not everybody does i

38:39 Sam Haack: agree and in this system that we currently operate, which was a full-born capitalist movement. You need to live by yourself. You need to own your own car. You need to have everything in your kitchen purchased individually. You need one of everything if you're living alone. But if you live with someone else, if you have a roommate, if you house hack, if you live with your family, if you have ADU, it's much more communal and you don't need your own car and your own this and that and that.

39:06 Sam Haack: It's smart, but we have a social stigma against doing that because you're seen as a failure if you still live with your parents or if you have a roommate or two and all these things. But hey, when we're in a ripping economy like this and housing market, it's like, all right, we've got to be practical sometimes and not so prideful.

39:23 Stephen Husted: I think that would help some people. Absolutely. My first townhouse that I bought, I was 34 and I moved all my friends in. I bought it for that reason. It was, you know, three stories and, you know, had three bedrooms and everybody had a bathroom. And I was like, I'm moving my friends in. So I did because I knew that I'm like, OK, I'm just going to move them in and it will reduce my mortgage payments. And, you know, they're going to have food there. I'm going to have food. Totally made sense. I had no problem with it whatsoever.

39:53 Stephen Husted: And funny enough, now you're hearing about house hacking. It's a thing, but I think it's a smart thing, especially in the beginning. You can make sacrifices in the beginning, but it also gets you in the game too. Gets you in the real estate game and that what you went through in college, these were all little moments that were setting the stage to what you do now. You were just moving towards them. You went to the bank and you're like, screw the bank.

40:17 Sam Haack: Right? Again, I think you want to optimize to have a full life experience and the opportunities will present themselves. I got a lot out of college, but not. so much from the classroom, right? I did find value in some econ classes, but most of it was like the social skills and the fraternity house, managing a bunch of 18 to 22 year olds and self-governing and things like that.

40:39 Sam Haack: It was, those are so important. So the more you can just get out there and

40:43 Stephen Husted: live life, you'll

40:44 Sam Haack: be successful no matter what. But if you stay at home and you kind of twiddle your thumbs or don't take risk, then not much can come out of it. There's a stoicism thing about this. It's called the bias of action. So if you say yes to something, It's like unlimited possibilities could happen. But if you say no to something, you don't take action. Literally nothing can happen. So there's a bias to always take action.

41:05 Stephen Husted: Yeah, absolutely. And being in a place of being uncomfortable is a good thing. I think when you get too comfortable on things, you're not growing. I look back in the last five years. I feel like every week I'm just uncomfortable. And that's not a bad thing. I'm not uncomfortable in a bad way. It's because I'm always doing new things and I'm pushing myself. I'm learning. I'm learning. And I think being in real estate like we are, we have a lot of different avenues. I don't think, you know, you're probably going to be doing different things five years from now. You might be doing the same, but there might be some other avenues that you're exploring. I agree. I'm just saying. I agree.

41:44 Stephen Husted: If you're managing room by room, you know, you could be an Airbnb operator in some market because you came across this interesting property in Alpine that was by the lake, you know, run down and you read rehab and you're like, I'm going to make it into an Airbnb. You're going to be set to do that. You're going to understand the risk. You're going to know how to put systems in place and you're going to rock and roll. But it started from college.

42:10 Sam Haack: Exactly. And I'm already looking at one of those fixer-uppers by the Lake Stevens, so you're one step ahead of me. I like how you're smiling. You're just like,

42:17 Stephen Husted: keep telling me. Yeah, don't look on Zillow.

42:21 Sam Haack: I haven't read the offer

42:22 Stephen Husted: yet. I love it.

42:25 Sam Haack: Do you have kids?

42:27 Stephen Husted: I do. My daughter's 19.

42:30 Sam Haack: Yeah, so squarely in Gen Z territory. And how are your kids? do i mean there's probably still in school right but how are they doing in the world of gen z where all of the gen x and boomers are like oh gen z is just terrible and they're so lazy and they want everything and do you experience that with your kids or how are they navigating that world of i

42:51 Stephen Husted: think probably one of the biggest mistakes we made was letting our daughter get on social media really yeah tiktok it's i don't know It's just they live in a reality. I mean, social media is great. It's great for business. It's great to stay connected to people, but it definitely has another side of it that's just, you know, not good at all. And I think that, I think during COVID, especially that time period when we're at home, you know, getting into the early TikTok, you know, it's just a little much. And I feel like there's just more to life and doing things than being locked into your phone. all the time.

43:34 Stephen Husted: Oh my gosh. That part, you know, she's got a good foundation of, you know, what her parents do and, you know, what we've gone through, but she's got other activities outside of, you know, being online, but these kids were born online.

43:48 Stephen Husted: I mean, they did work online. They were online during COVID to school, you know, like everything. So it's kind of a different time period. And I'm trying my best to navigate that with her. But I do worry about her mental health. Comparison game. I'll give you one great example. She went to this private school for high school. And she started seeing people going to different colleges. And then she was going to go to a junior college. And she sees it online. And it's easy to compare yourself online. That everybody else is doing better than you.

44:28 Stephen Husted: Most of the time, that's just a bunch of shit that it's an illusion because I don't care where you are in your life and how much money you make. Everybody goes through shit. Everybody has their ups and downs. It's not a perfect picture whatsoever. And I think social media can give that a lot. So I try to get her. I'll walk by her room and just go, get off TikTok. Watch out, you know, if you're going to do something, watch a long form video.

44:56 Stephen Husted: Yeah. Learn something from YouTube. Go to YouTube. I'm not big on the short form. I like watching long form YouTube. I like to learn YouTube videos or podcasts, like kind of things that I can get into for a period of time, you know, 20, 30 minutes. But it's interesting. I'm trying to get her on the whole. So I even played this. This is funny. So she's got a job and she put some money away, but I was trying to get her to jump onto Robin Hood and get the app.

45:24 Stephen Husted: I'm like, oh yeah, I think your generation's using Robin Hood. It's kind of like a video game and it's kind of like casino thing. It's like a game. You got to play it. And she's looking at me and I'm like, you should download the app and maybe we can play that game. Maybe you can invest in Apple or some tech stocks. Just a little bit of money. All I wanted to do is get the habit going.

45:45 Stephen Husted: Yeah. that's it yep and i'm just like is this angle gonna work and it's just why do i gotta do that you guys already set my accounts up and money gets invested already i don't need to have a second one i'm like damn

45:58 Sam Haack: shit one thing that i I've dealt with my friends here recently is I do have a lot of friends, some that I've met on social media, but they like to spend time out here and they either bought a house or they're considering moving into a full time, but they have girlfriends and wives that are more like city focused people. And, but the guys love it. They love the skiing and the hunting and stuff like that. And so every time they come to town, they go, Hey, can you bring.

46:22 Stephen Husted: a date with you or

46:23 Sam Haack: can you subtly drop hints that living here is the greatest thing ever because I can't do it anymore. I tried and it bounced off. And so, yeah, we're like, okay, we'll plant the seed. We'll work on her for you. And sometimes people just need to either come to the conclusions themselves on how they want to live their life or how they want to do their finances or what have you. But it helps to have some friends going around the back

46:45 Stephen Husted: door too. Yeah. And you know, you're totally right. And I go through that with my wife. a lot too she'll tell me something and maybe a year goes by and then somebody else does it and i'm like hey you know i just thought that and she's i just told you that like a year ago why you didn't listen to me it's the same thing i'm sure my daughter could hear some influencer telling her that robin hood is the best thing for investing in that she does it and she's oh i'm investing on robin hood maybe that's gonna happen fingers crossed and

47:12 Sam Haack: i've come to the conclusion that all things my parents think are cool have

47:16 Stephen Husted: always been cool

47:18 Sam Haack: but I just needed to learn it myself.

47:21 Stephen Husted: Yeah. She's definitely not there yet. It's kind of funny on things. Your music is a good one. You know, she'll listen to rap and I'm like, this isn't rap. You got to listen to stuff in the eighties. That's the kind of rap you want to listen to. That stuff's terrible. But now I'm starting to hear her play some songs, some tracks. I'm going, okay. Yeah. Now we're on the right path. What if somebody was coming into Jackson hole for a week?

47:46 Stephen Husted: what would you have them do?

47:49 Sam Haack: Oh man, I've done many an itinerary because a lot of my inbound social media inquiries are we're coming to Jackson for the first time

47:58 Stephen Husted: and or

47:59 Sam Haack: our fifth time and we would love some recommendations on how to spend our time and then maybe look at a house with you. Most of the time they're not looking for houses but I'm just happy to give them recommendations and I would say, you know, starting out, if you fly into Jackson Hole Airport, you see the Tetons, you might as well start there. You know, check into your hotel, but go right into Grand Teton National Park because that's why we're all here. We're here for the nature and the beauty and God's great creation. And so you go chase some wildlife. You see some moose, some bear, some elk, some bison. I mean, you can't see a lot of these things in other parts of America. Hire a tour guide or read some maps about where to see the wildlife. Take a hike. Go swim in one of our alpine lakes. There's a whole smattering of just amazing crystal clear lakes in Grand Teton. And just soak that all up. Then you come back to town, maybe take the gondola up Snow King Mountain, get dinner on top of the mountain at Aurora Restaurant up there and get a craft cocktail. And then, of course, you have to go to the Million Dollar Cowboy Bar. It's our iconic old school bar. It's been around forever. All of the bar stools are horse saddles. And there's swing dancing lessons on Thursday night. Really absorb the Western culture and the cowboy history of this area and get an appreciation for

49:15 Stephen Husted: what built it and what it

49:16 Sam Haack: still tries to strive to be. And then from there, go and venture out. Whether you're a ski person, go to Teton Village and get the big time. ski powder lines in. Or head on over to Idaho and fish the Teton River or go down Bowdoin and Alpine at the Palisades. But really make sure to get outside of town of Jackson or the ski resort because a lot of people fly in from New York City. They have fun in town. They get on the plane. They go back. And you didn't really experience the real Wyoming. We're pretty like... you know, gentrified wealth infused community here. And if you want to connect with real people and understand the state, which most people consider to be a flyover state from, from the coastal regions.

49:59 Sam Haack: Yeah. Go, go down to Pinedale, go down to Cokeville, you know, just go have a drink at the bar or some local people or get ice cream and chat some people up because the community is what makes it great at the end of the day.

50:10 Stephen Husted: Do you like the winter better than the summer or in reverse? I love,

50:17 Sam Haack: oh, it's so hard. I think I love the winter because there's so many sports that I enjoy.

50:24 Stephen Husted: The winter sports. I love snowmobiling. You're in the skiing.

50:27 Sam Haack: Yep. Downhill skiing and cross country skiing. Both incredible, great workouts. My dog loves the snow. He's part Husky, German Shepherd. So he's always making snow angels in the snow. That's cool. But the best thing about the climate here is just that it's dry.

50:43 Stephen Husted: We're a high desert.

50:44 Sam Haack: So the cold doesn't feel as cold as a wet, you know, New York City rain or cold there. And in the summertime, it doesn't feel as hot as it would be if it was really super humid in Alabama or Mississippi. So it's just really an amazing climate and

50:59 Stephen Husted: activities to go with it. I'm going to catch you on your summer. Yeah, fair enough. Yeah, because I like to bike and trail run. So I think that's going to be my time to go. what's your favorite month september good

51:15 Sam Haack: september is great we used to have really big shoulder season off seasons they were like you know two or three months in the spring and fall but since it's become such a popular destination they've become like two weeks three weeks it feels um so i must say i do exhale on those weeks in in

51:34 Stephen Husted: september or in um april or may

51:37 Sam Haack: but i would say my favorite month is probably February because we normally have the best snow here. Otherwise, I would say smack dab July in the middle of the summer because it's just so Americana. All the classic cars come out. There's 4th of July parades and you're fishing the river and it just doesn't get much more American than that.

51:59 Stephen Husted: Do I have to pack a cowboy hat?

52:01 Sam Haack: We'll set you up with one here. We got like 10 shops in town. Cool. You have one?

52:08 Stephen Husted: Oh, I do. Oh, perfect. Okay. Make sure it's the right kind. I got a funny story about a cowboy hat. So back in the 90s, I was a DJ and I DJed at Shasta Lake at this thing called Boardstock. It was a wakeboarding competition. And so they had houseboats everywhere and DJs on the boats, you know, for afterwards. And this girl I knew.

52:34 Stephen Husted: wore this cowboy hat the whole time. It was really cool. That was her identity for that whole weekend. And somehow it ended up in the water, and I found it in the lake. And took it home, and somehow it ended. And then I had to go to a Christmas party. And it was, the Christmas party had a theme. It was called Disco Cowboy. And so I took the hat, I spray painted it silver, and put Disco Ball.

53:01 Stephen Husted: rhinestones everywhere on it and it was like the disco cowboy hat i still have it to this date it's hilarious it is that's amazing that would be the one that if you walked into that bar you just said uh in jackson hall they would probably pick me up probably five guys and just throw me right out the door i'd get my ass kicked quick someone

53:23 Sam Haack: recently told me they're like i feel like jackson's becoming like a little nashville and i was like Oh no, never say those two city names in the same sentence ever again, but it's true. We have a lot of bachelorette parties and people coming for, you know, the dress up of it all and the big fur coats and still a lot like Aspen, but we still have real cowboys too.

53:43 Sam Haack: And a lot of them.

53:44 Stephen Husted: That's good. That's good. On that note, I really appreciate you jumping on Sam and getting me inspired about Jackson Hole. So I think that I will get that on the list to go check out in the summer. and then we can hang out maybe and take me to some of your favorite spots. That'd be kind of cool.

54:03 Sam Haack: You're totally welcome to come out. And we have lots of great connections at hotels or rental homes and restaurants. So we'll set you up with a whole itinerary. I'll make one custom for you.

54:13 Stephen Husted: Awesome. That's a deal. Right on, Sam. Well, you have a good day.

∎ Podcast Outro:

Thanks for jumping on the podcast today. Thank you, Steven. This was a lot of fun. Thank you. Thank you for tuning into our show, where we hope you found inspiration and gained valuable insights. If you enjoyed this conversation and want to stay updated on our latest episodes, be sure to subscribe to our podcast and share it with others who might benefit from it. We appreciate your support and look forward to bringing you more candid conversations and breakthrough moments in the future. Until next time, take care and keep exploring new ideas and strategies.